— Let’s start with a brief introduction from each of you.

Cora: Hi everyone, my name is Cora, and I’m very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I’m from Hong Kong, and I work at a festival called Clockenflap Music & Arts Festival. The festival started in 2008 and takes place annually on the last weekend of November. It’s a multi-genre festival that runs for three days right in the heart of Hong Kong.

Ran: Hello, I’m Zhang Ran from China. My English isn’t very good, so sometimes my friends joke that when I speak English, it sounds like I’m speaking Chinese. Thank you for your understanding. I run a company called Kiloglow, where we primarily organize headline shows in China for international artists. This year, we held the first-ever Kiloglow Festival, with a lineup that was half local Chinese artists and half international artists.

Johnnie: Hi I'm Johnny from Smash Corporation in Tokyo and we organize the Fuji Rock Festival. This year is our 25th anniversary. Nothing particularly special about it other than it's just another year and hasn't gone any quicker over twenty five years. It's a festival in Niigata Prefecture which is a ski resort and so luckily we have already infrastructure of hotels but mainly it's a camping festival and it's always the last weekend of July and we never changed that because that's of the audience build their kind of holiday period around going to Fuji rock. There are five main stages and a lot of smaller stages.

— Honestly, I think it’s safe to say that anyone who loves festivals is well aware of Fuji Rock or Clockenflap. My first question is about the process behind curating a festival lineup. When putting together headliners or the overall lineup, how much do you consider your country’s local music market? As Zhang Ran mentioned, Kiloglow balances its lineup with half local and half international artists. Could you elaborate on how you approach this balance?

Johnnie: As a promoter, you can only promote music you like. You can’t promote an artist you don’t like—it’s just a given. When it comes to curating a festival lineup, it’s usually a collaborative process within the team. Everyone brings their ideas to the table, and we often debate over one artist versus another. For headliners, it’s more about supply and demand—what the audience wants to see while also fitting within the Fuji Rock brand. We’re not an overly commercial festival. When we first started, the focus was more on indie rock, and later electronic music became more prominent. Above all, the brand of the festival is crucial. When someone says they’re going to Fuji Rock, they already know what to expect. That’s the most important thing.

When it comes to the lineup, we start by focusing on mid-level artists and work our way down to smaller acts. Most of these are emerging artists who bring a lot of energy to their performances but haven’t had the chance to play at a major festival yet. For the audience, these are the kinds of bands they get to discover for the first time. This part of the lineup is the most important to us.

The other thing is that the artist must be able to do a good performance. Even if a band has sold thousands of albums or achieved massive streams on Spotify, if they’ve never performed live at a festival or failed to deliver on stage, they are of no use to us. Such an artist won’t captivate the audience. So, it’s essential that every artist on stage delivers an exceptional and thrilling show.

Ran: Before starting my own company, I worked 9 years programming and booking for China’s Strawberry Music Festival. This festival was held in 20 different cities across China yearly, but the international artist lineup was always the same. During this period, many promoters turned to me for international artist booking opportunities in order to achieve a different lineup. That’s where I saw the potential and why I started up my own company.

In China, platforms like Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook aren’t commonly used. Instead we primarily rely on local music streaming sites and social media platforms to assess the popularity of international artists. As a result, many globally famous artists are not necessarily big here and vice versa. I would always love to dig for artists that are locally loved more in this case. 

For my festival, I value the exclusivity of the lineup very much. So I always want to ensure that my festival has an international lineup that is popular among Chinese audience and not so many repeating local lineups.

Cora: I agree with Johnnie and Zhang Ran. About the festival lineup, we need to know what the audience wants right now. For us, it’s not just about what people in Hong Kong are listening to, but also what appeals to audiences from regions outside of Hong Kong, as they make up a chunk of Clockenflap’s festival demographic.

At the same time, it’s essential to stay true to the Clockenflap brand and to what we initially set out to achieve. This has been particularly challenging after COVID. We've noticed a significant shift in our audience demographic—our crowd has become much younger and more local, with many attendees who may have never been to a festival before the pandemic. COVID lasted a long time, and in Hong Kong, we also experienced civil unrest in 2019, which meant the festival was on pause for four years. That gap was enormous. Then we decided to hold the festival in March 2023, instead of waiting until December, we were surprised. People still remembered and cared about Clockenflap. We had assumed that, with so many new festivals and promoters emerging, people might have moved on.

That said, our priority is always to give our audience the best experience possible. However, it does feel like most people still attend primarily for the headliners. That’s the challenge we’re facing now. We want to sell tickets to people who stay true to the brand and ensure that our core audience group is not alienated.

— Thank you for sharing your insights. After COVID, we’ve noticed a shift in audience demographics, and while headliners might not always be the most important aspect, it’s undeniable that they often become a central topic of discussion. This creates a dilemma where we can’t avoid asking, “Who’s the headliner this year?” as it tends to significantly impact ticket sales. We’ve already talked about the importance of performance and branding, but it seems that the headliner still plays a crucial role. With that in mind, we’re curious: Despite the importance of performance and branding, how crucial do you think headliners and the overall lineup are? Could you shu’re currently running? Are any tips on how you align the lineup with the philosophy of the festival?

Johnnie: Variety is key. On Friday, the lineup features a certain style of music, while Saturday and Sunday offer completely different styles, which helps attract a broader audience. At Fuji Rock, this variety allows the festival to appeal to a wider range of people.

Each day, the main stage presents a distinct style, creating three unique festival experiences. For example, if the main stage features a headliner on Friday, the second stage might showcase a more alternative performance. This way, the lineup remains diverse, ensuring that everyone who attends the festival finds something they enjoy.

Initially, Fuji Rock was heavily focused on rock music, but today’s audiences don’t stick to just one genre. They come to festivals expecting a variety of experiences and a good time. If someone doesn’t enjoy what’s happening on the main stage, they can simply move to another stage and find something else to enjoy. Getting these combinations right is incredibly challenging.

Ran: We’re not particularly fond of audiences who come to the festival just for one headliner. Unfortunately, when we ask new attendees if they recognize any names on the lineup, most of them would only mention the headliner.

Our festival, Kiloglow, runs for three days, and we aim to showcase a wide variety of musical styles by dividing them across the days. I believe that the headliner anchors the rough amount of audience and sets the tone of the music genre for that day. For example, we might focus on rock bands on Friday, shift to pop or urban music on Saturday, and feature singer-songwriters or folk music on the final day. Then on each day, we try to present more interesting music contents globally and locally. Headliners are indeed important, but try to be diverse and inclusive.

Cora: I think our philosophy is quite similar to Fuji Rock’s. For the three main live stages, we aim to showcase a diverse range of genres. For example, at last year’s festival in December, the Friday headliner on the main stage was Yoasobi, while the second stage featured a Canadian rapper named BBNO$, and the third stage hosted Idiotape from Korea. These three acts represented very different genres and styles, allowing audiences to enjoy performances that suited their preferences, even if they were happening simultaneously. We wanted to ensure that everyone could find something they loved at the festival.

Of course, there are times when the overlap between artists is greater than we anticipated. For instance, we received a lot of complaints last year about the clashes in Sunday’s schedule. I think this issue ties back to our newer audience, as many of them attend the festival specifically to see certain artists and expect to watch all the performances they have in mind. However, for headliner-level artists, their sets are typically scheduled during the final slots, which inevitably leads to time conflicts. Last year, we faced significant criticism for scheduling No Party for Caodong from Taiwan and Joji at the same time. While we initially thought their audiences would be completely different, it turned out there was considerable overlap. Sometimes, unexpected situations like this arise despite our planning.

One strategy we tried last year to encourage people to arrive earlier was a collaboration with a local promoter and music platform during the March edition of the festival. We organized a voting event where audiences could vote for their favorite local artists from a shortlist of five. The two winning artists were given the first slot on our main stage on Saturday and Sunday. This approach was quite successful, as many people came early to see the artists they had voted for and stayed to enjoy the rest of the lineup. It also allowed them to discover other performances they might have missed if they had arrived later. Ultimately, our goal is to encourage attendees to come early and explore as much music as possible throughout the day, rather than only showing up late to see the artists they already know.

— It seems that all three of you put a lot of thought into running festivals with diverse lineups. In recent years, even in Korea, rock festivals no longer feature only rock bands, and jazz festivals no longer exclusively showcase jazz artists. Instead, we’ve seen attempts to introduce variety by featuring different genres or styles on different days. This shift likely stems from the considerations of festival organizers like yourselves. From your experience, do you find that embracing diversity in a festival lineup is more effective for ticket sales and branding than maintaining a clear image centered around a specific genre or style? Have you personally experienced any tangible benefits from either approach?

Johnnie: Let’s take the idea of “Fuji Rock” as an example. Some might choose to focus entirely on the rock genre, while others might aim for diversity by incorporating various genres. Which approach do you think is more beneficial for our festival branding?

In my opinion, the best way to build a strong brand is by discovering new alternative music—rising stars, specifically.

For instance, we have a small stage called the "Rookie A Go-Go" stage. It’s dedicated to bands that don’t yet have a record contract and are just beginning their careers. These bands submit their music—usually around 150 to 200 entries—and we select about 30 to perform during the festival. Audiences can then vote for their favorite bands, adding an interactive element to the discovery process. Our goal is to nurture bands that can gradually grow and, in five years, perform on the main stage, the Green Stage. It is essential for us to discover and support new music and emerging local bands.

Ran: I think the number of tickets you want to sell is a very important consideration as a festival organizer. In the past, I organized and ran a showcase festival called Sound of the City for nine years. During that time, we explored many approaches, such as focusing on niche genres like post-punk or post-rock. While we introduced a lot of diverse and relatively unknown music, the festival often ran at a loss. Building a festival centered around emerging artists proved to be an incredibly challenging endeavor.

However, personally I like festivals that focus on a certain genre or style. It’s a more effective branding approach in the long run and eventually the audience would remember the brand while care less about the lineup.

Cora: I think Hong Kong is too small a place, so it really depends on the scale of the festival you want to create. With a population of just 7 million, Hong Kong has a relatively small audience base, which makes it challenging to organize festivals centered around specific genres.

For example, we have a government-funded jazz festival that has been running since 2019, but it wouldn’t have been possible without public funding or government support. For commercial festivals like ours, it’s difficult for niche genre festivals to survive because it’s hard to grow their scale with limited audiences. Recently, I’ve heard discussions about people who are passionate about shoegaze and dream of having a shoegaze-only festival. I would love to see something like that happen in Hong Kong as well. Even if it’s not a large-scale event, it would be very cool if someone tried to make it a reality.

— In the end, to create a large-scale festival, diversity inevitably becomes a key consideration. For festivals like Fuji Rock, it seems to be about discovering and nurturing new artists while growing together. As a festival grows in scale, it also becomes important to raise its recognition not just nationally, but across Asia and even beyond. From the perspective of organizing a major festival, have you ever faced limitations or, conversely, seen unique possibilities because it is based in Asia? In other words, what are the "hopeful" aspects and the "challenging" aspects?

Johnnie: One of the challenges we face is the physical distance for Western artists to travel here. In Europe, an artist can perform at four or five festivals over four or five days, moving from one location to another. But coming to Asia, that kind of schedule isn’t feasible. To address this, we make every effort to connect with festivals in Indonesia or Malaysia, which often take place the weekend before ours. We hope more artists will see the value in touring Asia and performing at multiple festivals or shows during the same trip. This benefits us by reducing costs and also helps grow the Asian festival market. 

However, one major issue is that agents tend to focus only on Japan, and maybe a few other well-known cities like Hong Kong or Singapore. They often overlook places like Taiwan, Indonesia, or Malaysia, which creates challenges for promoters in those regions.That’s why it’s crucial for us as promoters to share information and collaborate within the region.

Ran: For us, the problem is that local artists are being increasingly overexposed, so we need to book international artists. However, booking international artists has become very difficult. Most of them don’t want to come to Asia, except for Japan. As a result, we’ve shifted our focus to inviting Japanese artists, who have been gaining more recognition recently. This year we had about nine Japanese artists perform at our festival.

One major issue with international artists is that they frequently cancel their shows often for various reasons. When this happens, Chinese audiences not only demand ticket refunds but also request compensation for hotel and flight expenses. From the perspective of running a festival, this has become a serious problem for us. I wonder if these challenges stem from the unique nature of the Asian market. I can’t see any clear advantages at the moment.

Cora: I think the only real advantage of being an Asian festival is that our audience is open to experiencing a wide range of music, not just from international artists. For example, I’ve heard that many festivals in the US, Europe, and the UK have faced significant challenges this year. I believe this is a global trend—festivals everywhere are struggling to book headliners. For US festivals, the only names that truly resonate with their audience often have to be major artists from the US or Europe. However, for festivals like Clockenflap, the Hong Kong audience is more open-minded. They might embrace a Mandarin pop artist or a Japanese artist as a headliner. This flexibility can be a silver lining for us. When booking international artists becomes difficult, we can turn to local or regional artists who resonate with our audience. That said, the downside is that these artists often perform at multiple shows or festivals across China and the region. This makes it challenging to ensure that our headliners and lineup stand out as truly unique or distinct.

— In Korea, a new festival called the "Asian Pop Festival," which focuses on the region, is also being launched. It seems that the landscape of the live performance market is shifting as part of the ongoing discussions and challenges you are all addressing. For my final question, do you think the lineup will continue to play the most crucial role for music festivals in the future?

Johnnie: I think it’s about 50 percent. Just as important as the lineup is the overall experience of the festival—people coming together, having a great time with their friends, enjoying good food and drinks, and leaving with happy faces after a memorable weekend. Perhaps they even discover a few bands they like along the way.

Ran: I think the lineup remains crucial for China. Since alcohol sales are prohibited at Chinese festivals, attendees have fewer opportunities to enhance their enjoyment with the help of drinks. Also, there are many limitations on other non-musical entertainment parts for Chinese festivals, such as merch, camping, etc. For such reasons, having a strong lineup that boosts ticket sales is still an essential element.

Besides, the younger generation here in China as emerging key attendees of festivals also has a different way of having fun at a festival. They don’t enjoy moving around in multiple stages at a festival, that's why main festivals here only have two major stages. Under such circumstance you have to put up a strong lineup to keep their attention. 

As a new music festival brand, Kiloglow Festival doesn't have a fanbase. Lineup is crucial for us in the future to gain more audience.

Cora: Our situation is quite similar. As a city festival, one of Clockenflap’s unique selling points is the stunning cityscape that can only be experienced at our event. However, after a few years of seeing the same skyline, the excitement may naturally diminish. For this reason, the lineup remains a decisive factor in planning our festival. That said, one of the new concepts we’ve been considering is a camping festival. If we were to launch such a festival, the focus might shift from the lineup to providing attendees with a fresh experience, such as spending time outdoors and enjoying the camping atmosphere. In that case, the overall experience could become more important than the lineup itself.

— Thank you for your insightful comments. We will wrap up this session here.